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Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

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By Jonathan Corbet
March 25, 2015
The LibreOffice project was announced with great fanfare in September 2010. Nearly one year later, the OpenOffice.org project (from which LibreOffice was forked) was cut loose from Oracle and found a new home as an Apache project. It is fair to say that the rivalry between the two projects in the time since then has been strong. Predictions that one project or the other would fail have not been borne out, but that does not mean that the two projects are equally successful. A look at the two projects' development communities reveals some interesting differences.

Release histories

Apache OpenOffice has made two releases in the past year: 4.1 in April 2014 and 4.1.1 (described as "a micro update" in the release announcement) in August. The main feature added during that time would appear to be significantly improved accessibility support.

The release history for LibreOffice tells a slightly different story:

ReleaseDate
4.2.3 April 2014
4.1.6 April 2014
4.2.4 May 2014
4.2.5 June 2014
4.3 July 2014
4.2.6 August 2014
4.3.1 August 2014
4.3.2 September 2014
4.2.7/4.3.3 October 2014
4.3.4 November 2014
4.2.8 December 2014
4.3.5 December 2014
4.4 January 2015
4.3.6 February 2015
4.4.1 February 2015

It seems clear that LibreOffice has maintained a rather more frenetic release cadence, generally putting out at least one release per month. The project typically keeps at least two major versions alive at any one time. Most of the releases are of the minor, bug-fix variety, but there have been two major releases in the last year as well.

Development statistics

In the one-year period since late March 2014, there have been 381 changesets committed to the OpenOffice Subversion repository. The most active committers are:

Most active OpenOffice developers
By changesets
Herbert Dürr6316.6%
Jürgen Schmidt             5614.7%
Armin Le Grand5614.7%
Oliver-Rainer Wittmann4612.1%
Tsutomu Uchino338.7%
Kay Schenk277.1%
Pedro Giffuni236.1%
Ariel Constenla-Haile225.8%
Andrea Pescetti143.7%
Steve Yin112.9%
Andre Fischer102.6%
Yuri Dario71.8%
Regina Henschel61.6%
Juan C. Sanz20.5%
Clarence Guo20.5%
Tal Daniel20.5%
By changed lines
Jürgen Schmidt             45549988.1%
Andre Fischer261483.8%
Pedro Giffuni231833.4%
Armin Le Grand110181.6%
Juan C. Sanz45820.7%
Oliver-Rainer Wittmann43090.6%
Andrea Pescetti39080.6%
Herbert Dürr28110.4%
Tsutomu Uchino19910.3%
Ariel Constenla-Haile12580.2%
Steve Yin10100.1%
Kay Schenk6160.1%
Regina Henschel4170.1%
Yuri Dario2680.0%
tal160.0%
Clarence Guo110.0%

In truth, the above list is not just the most active OpenOffice developers — it is all of them; a total of 16 developers have committed changes to OpenOffice in the last year. Those developers changed 528,000 lines of code, but, as can be seen above, Jürgen Schmidt accounted for the bulk of those changes, which were mostly updates to translation files.

The top four developers in the "by changesets" column all work for IBM, so IBM is responsible for a minimum of about 60% of the changes to OpenOffice in the last year.

The picture for LibreOffice is just a little bit different; in the same one-year period, the project has committed 22,134 changesets from 268 developers. The most active of these developers were:

Most active LibreOffice developers
By changesets
Caolán McNamara430719.5%
Stephan Bergmann235110.6%
Miklos Vajna14496.5%
Tor Lillqvist11595.2%
Noel Grandin10644.8%
Markus Mohrhard9354.2%
Michael Stahl9154.1%
Kohei Yoshida7553.4%
Tomaž Vajngerl6583.0%
Thomas Arnhold6192.8%
Jan Holesovsky4662.1%
Eike Rathke4572.1%
Matteo Casalin4422.0%
Bjoern Michaelsen4211.9%
Chris Sherlock3961.8%
David Tardon3861.7%
Julien Nabet3621.6%
Zolnai Tamás3381.5%
Matúš Kukan2561.2%
Robert Antoni Buj Gelonch2311.0%
By changed lines
Lionel Elie Mamane24406212.5%
Noel Grandin23871112.2%
Stephan Bergmann1612208.3%
Miklos Vajna1293256.6%
Caolán McNamara975445.0%
Tomaž Vajngerl694043.6%
Tor Lillqvist594983.1%
Laurent Balland-Poirier528022.7%
Markus Mohrhard505092.6%
Kohei Yoshida455142.3%
Chris Sherlock367881.9%
Peter Foley343051.8%
Christian Lohmaier337871.7%
Thomas Arnhold327221.7%
David Tardon216811.1%
David Ostrovsky216201.1%
Jan Holesovsky207921.1%
Valentin Kettner205261.1%
Robert Antoni Buj Gelonch204471.0%
Michael Stahl182160.9%

To a first approximation, the top ten companies supporting LibreOffice in the last year are:

Companies supporting LibreOffice development
(by changesets)
Red Hat841738.0%
Collabora Multimedia653129.5%
(Unknown)512623.2%
(None)14906.7%
Canonical4221.9%
Igalia S.L.800.4%
Ericsson210.1%
Yandex180.1%
FastMail.FM170.1%
SUSE70.0%

Development work on LibreOffice is thus concentrated in a small number of companies, though it is rather more spread out than OpenOffice development. It is worth noting that the LibreOffice developers with unknown affiliation, who contributed 23% of the changes, make up 82% of the developer base, so there would appear to be a substantial community of developers contributing from outside the above-listed companies.

Some conclusions

Last October, some concerns were raised on the OpenOffice list about the health of that project's community. At the time, Rob Weir shrugged them off as the result of a marketing effort by the LibreOffice crowd. There can be no doubt that the war of words between these two projects has gotten tiresome at times, but, looking at the above numbers, it is hard not to conclude that there is an issue that goes beyond marketing hype here.

In the 4½ years since its founding, the LibreOffice project has put together a community with over 250 active developers. There is support from multiple companies and an impressive rate of patches going into the project's repository. The project's ability to sustain nearly monthly releases on two branches is a direct result of that community's work. Swearing at LibreOffice is one of your editor's favorite pastimes, but it seems clear that the project is on a solid footing with a healthy community.

OpenOffice, instead, is driven by four developers from a single company — a company that appears to have been deemphasizing OpenOffice work for some time. As a result, the project's commit rate is a fraction of what LibreOffice is able to sustain and releases are relatively rare. As of this writing, the OpenOffice blog shows no posts in 2015. In the October discussion, Rob said that "the dogs may bark but the caravan moves on." That may be true, but, in this case, the caravan does not appear to be moving with any great speed.

Anything can happen in the free-software development world; it is entirely possible that a reinvigorated OpenOffice.org may yet give LibreOffice a run for its money. But something will clearly have to change to bring that future around. As things stand now, it is hard not to conclude that LibreOffice has won the battle for developer participation.


to post comments

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 25, 2015 17:12 UTC (Wed) by amacater (subscriber, #790) [Link] (6 responses)

I'm reasonably sure that the licensing may have something to do with this: OpenOffice is more restrictuive such that changes can only flow one way.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 25, 2015 23:36 UTC (Wed) by hirnbrot (guest, #89469) [Link] (1 responses)

I'm fairly certain it's the other way around: AO is licensed under the Apache license 2.0, while LO is licensed as LGPLv3, which can incorporate Apache2.0 code.

The changes can only flow from AO to LO (i.e. LO's license is more restrictive).

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 26, 2015 7:34 UTC (Thu) by fredrik (subscriber, #232) [Link]

Actually Libreoffice is licenced under Mozilla Public License 2.0. More specifically it is dual licensed MPL2/LGPL3+.

http://www.libreoffice.org/download/license/

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 26, 2015 14:46 UTC (Thu) by ssam (guest, #46587) [Link] (3 responses)

Assuming all AOO patches are original (i.e. not replicating changes in LO) and that LO takes them all, it would account for about 2% of the activity in LO. So the flow of work from AOO to LO is pretty small.

Anyway AOO specifically chose a licences so that other people can take their code without giving back.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 26, 2015 18:34 UTC (Thu) by mjw (subscriber, #16740) [Link] (2 responses)

LibreOffice keeps an aoo branch in their git tree for easy cherry picking. They review each commit and add notes to indicate why a commit is or isn't relevant: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/log/?h=aoo/t...

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Apr 2, 2015 9:10 UTC (Thu) by moltonel (guest, #45207) [Link] (1 responses)

Out of curiosity, greping through that first page (50 commits):
* 28% of commits get merged as-is
* 42% get done differently (hard to say wether LO patches were inspired by the AOO patches or not)
* 30% get rejected/ignored.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Apr 2, 2015 15:17 UTC (Thu) by cesarb (subscriber, #6266) [Link]

> 42% get done differently (hard to say wether LO patches were inspired by the AOO patches or not)

If you're talking about the "prefer: <commit>" ones, take a look at the referenced commit. Almost always that commit is earlier (and often much earlier) than the AOO commit.

For instance, taking a look at a recent AOO commit from 7 days ago, "Huge update to the FreeBSD port", which the LO developers marked with "prefer: <commit>". The referenced LO commit, "Use linux bridge code on all BSDs", is from 2010-11-05.

Another AOO commit from 7 days ago, "Re-implement Calc's RAND() function using a variant of KISS PRNG", also marked with "prefer: <commit>". The corresponding LO commit is from 2014-10-03, "use comphelper::rng::uniform_*_distribution everywhere", and the commit message tells it was on response to a series of Coverity reports.

And so on.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 25, 2015 19:04 UTC (Wed) by kfiles (subscriber, #11628) [Link] (11 responses)

It seems from their download stats that OpenOffice, despite a relative lack of new features, is still being downloaded at a decent pace. It looks like they average about 120k downloads per day, down 25% from their peak in 2012 of about 160k per day.

http://www.openoffice.org/stats/aoo-downloads.txt

Whatever the download rate of LibreOffice in the Windows space, where OpenOffice adoption is the strongest, it's not overcoming the strong brand recognition that OpenOffice still enjoys.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 26, 2015 1:10 UTC (Thu) by louie (guest, #3285) [Link]

Possibly worth comparing the two terms in Google Trends - the brand awareness just hasn't been there for libreoffice, but it is clearly catching up.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 26, 2015 7:14 UTC (Thu) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link] (6 responses)

There is no question at all that the Brand has value. Isn't that common sense? Companies are purchased all the time just for the name and brand value. It took a long time for OO to build the brand name it has. It's going to take time but if LO continues to improve in ways that OO doesn't then in time LO will dominate.

It's interesting to me that you don't see all the posts anymore from OO claiming that all of LO's changes are just code cleanup or imports from OO. But it would be hard to claim that now. I do wonder though if OO is even viable as a project with really only 6 contributors with a project of the size they deal with. Does anyone know how many people Sun had working on it before Oracle bought them?

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 27, 2015 10:06 UTC (Fri) by aleXXX (subscriber, #2742) [Link] (5 responses)

Personally, for me "LibreOffice" is even hard to pronounce, compared to "OpenOffice". So when I say LibreOffice it always feels weird to me.

So what I want to say, when I talk about it, I still often say "OpenOffice", later amended by "yes, the free fork, not the apache one".

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 27, 2015 13:12 UTC (Fri) by cesarb (subscriber, #6266) [Link]

> Personally, for me "LibreOffice" is even hard to pronounce, compared to "OpenOffice". So when I say LibreOffice it always feels weird to me.

It probably depends on your native language. My native language is Portuguese, and I find LibreOffice very easy to pronounce. For native Spanish speakers it should also be easy.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 27, 2015 13:20 UTC (Fri) by cortana (subscriber, #24596) [Link]

I go with 'leeb-roffice', with a bit of a French ʁ in the middle.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 27, 2015 13:27 UTC (Fri) by tao (subscriber, #17563) [Link]

No Cuba Libre orders for you in bars, I guess...

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 27, 2015 17:34 UTC (Fri) by luya (subscriber, #50741) [Link]

Personally, for me "LibreOffice" is even hard to pronounce, compared to "OpenOffice". So when I say LibreOffice it always feels weird to me.
"Libre" is easy to pronounce for Latin speaking people with some variations. Even asian language speaking like Japanese can do it although it basically pronounced like "Li-Bu-Re".

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 28, 2015 3:17 UTC (Sat) by leoc (guest, #39773) [Link]

I read it as LEE-BROFFIS and it's easy.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 26, 2015 23:32 UTC (Thu) by webmink (guest, #47180) [Link] (2 responses)

This is the great shame of the situation. The OpenOffice brand is one of the treasures of the free software movement. There are tens of millions (maybe hundreds of millions) of Windows users for whom it is their main experience of free software. Given the investment Sun made in developing and protecting the brand over nearly a decade, it's no surprise that the OpenOffice remains top-of-mind for so many people.

The real question on the subject is not why LibreOffice hasn't overtaken it, but rather what Apache are going to do with this enormous asset they hold in trust. Having it point at a stagnant project does nothing good for any of us.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 27, 2015 0:59 UTC (Fri) by branden (guest, #7029) [Link]

Sometimes one doesn't play to win, but simply to make the other guy lose.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 29, 2015 2:00 UTC (Sun) by luya (subscriber, #50741) [Link]

The real question on the subject is not why LibreOffice hasn't overtaken it, but rather what Apache are going to do with this enormous asset they hold in trust. Having it point at a stagnant project does nothing good for any of us.
Ask Oracle: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/15/oracle_letting_openoffice_go/

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 25, 2015 21:50 UTC (Wed) by nedrichards (subscriber, #23295) [Link] (1 responses)

Just a quick note that it's Collabora Productivity rather than Multimedia who did the work on LibreOffice in your table. Multimedia merged into the rest of Collabora a while back.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 26, 2015 5:27 UTC (Thu) by bilboed (subscriber, #54668) [Link]

Indeed, it's Collabora Productivity who did that work. Unless someone magically rewrote libreoffice as a GStreamer plugin :)

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 25, 2015 22:44 UTC (Wed) by dmarti (subscriber, #11625) [Link] (6 responses)

I searched for [OpenOffice Subversion] and got this page: https://www.openoffice.org/tools/svn_checkout.html

"Between OpenOffice.org 3.0 release and 3.2 release Subversion was used as the source code repository. After the 3.2 release OOo has migrated to Mercurial. Now the subversion repository is only useful for getting the sources of the OOo 3.1 release branch (OOO310)."

Are they still on Subversion? Maybe that explains the low activity. Or am I just looking at out-of-date documentation?

Subversion

Posted Mar 25, 2015 22:51 UTC (Wed) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] (5 responses)

They are on subversion — it's an Apache project, after all. This page points at the repository and such.

Subversion

Posted Mar 25, 2015 23:32 UTC (Wed) by cesarb (subscriber, #6266) [Link] (3 responses)

...and they are discussing a possible move to Git.

Yes, they moved from Mercurial to Subversion, and now are thinking of moving to Git.

Subversion

Posted Mar 30, 2015 2:58 UTC (Mon) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (2 responses)

> Yes, they moved from Mercurial to Subversion,...

They apparently moved from Mercurial *back* to Subversion (the only system ever which did not bother implementing anything for branches and tags...)

Why on earth would anyone do this? Any pointer?

Subversion

Posted Mar 30, 2015 9:39 UTC (Mon) by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501) [Link] (1 responses)

Because Subversion was (still is?) the standard of Apache.

Subversion

Posted Mar 30, 2015 14:09 UTC (Mon) by dmarti (subscriber, #11625) [Link]

Subversion itself is an Apache project, but Git is also a supported SCM system at ASF.

"In April, 2014, we hit the magic mark where we had more Git commits than Subversion commits."

http://www.linux.com/news/featured-blogs/196-zonker/78712...

Subversion

Posted Mar 26, 2015 19:36 UTC (Thu) by dnaber (guest, #56178) [Link]

Apache projects can use git, too. See http://git.apache.org/ and the page linked from there.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 26, 2015 4:18 UTC (Thu) by sghosh (subscriber, #94778) [Link]

And today's announcement around the development of the cloud hosted capability...

https://libreoffice-from-collabora.com/icewarp-and-collab...

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 26, 2015 10:43 UTC (Thu) by kugel (subscriber, #70540) [Link]

What, what? The infamous Rob Weir doesn't even contribute code? I had assumed that he must be a core developer, considering the political war he's fighting (against wind mills).

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 26, 2015 12:26 UTC (Thu) by simosx (guest, #24338) [Link] (2 responses)

The proper name is "Apache OpenOffice". It looks like Apache OpenOffice is taking advantage of the +10 years of publicity of the OpenOffice.org days.

You get people complaining that "OpenOffice" does not work well, and you explain that they need to uninstall it and finally install LibreOffice.

If Apache OpenOffice was fair, they should have added a notification on "www.openoffice.org" that from the ashes of OpenOffice.org, you have the option for either Apache OpenOffice, LibreOffice , NeoOffice and what not.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 28, 2015 15:20 UTC (Sat) by dashesy (guest, #74652) [Link] (1 responses)

Yes this happened to me twice, and both times unsophisticated Windows users. I think part of the blame is pronunciation difficulty with `reOffice` in LibreOffice if you have `Lib` but not `Libre` in your language.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 30, 2015 7:13 UTC (Mon) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link]

French people will pronounce it li*bro*ffice and *bro*ther is a basic English word, so there's really no problem appart from people making a fit over a latin word origin.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 26, 2015 13:09 UTC (Thu) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link] (30 responses)

Is it just me or is this article (very unusually for corbet) troll-bait and borderline flame-bait? A technical comparison (of features etc) would have made it worthwhile, but if it is true that AOO is falling behind because of lack of developer effort, why not just stay quiet and let it sort out its own problems (or die)?

Not that I have any sympathy for Mr Weir here. And I think it was a terrible decision by the Apache foundation to take this orphan under their wing after TDF had been developing LO, very nicely, for a year. And perhaps it is human for corbet to want to respond, with actual numbers, to Weir's repeated flaming on lwn. But it is the quality of the end-product that should matter, eventually.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 26, 2015 13:49 UTC (Thu) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] (9 responses)

I'm sorry if you saw it that way. In my mind, the health of development communities is within LWN's normal range. When I'm thinking about adding a dependency on a free software project, I usually put some effort into seeing what its development looks like; I don't think I'm the only one. In this case, I did try to stick pretty firmly to the things I could objectively measure. I hope the result is useful, but, if not, I won't do it again...

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 26, 2015 14:10 UTC (Thu) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link] (3 responses)

I certainly don't want to tell you what to do in future! To me, the result here is not useful, but to others, it perhaps is. I'm all in favour of the general population becoming aware that LibreOffice is a new OpenOffice.org, and AOO is just a different fork of the same. It just seems to me that they should compete on their technical merits: it is possible (and it happens) for a project run by a few developers at one corporation to do better than a project with dozens of contributions across diverse organizations. After all, many people may prefer a feature-frozen Microsoft Office 2010, ported to Linux (or maybe just made wine-friendly), with only bug-fixes contributed by a few MS employees, to either of the alternatives here. So the article you wrote doesn't actually say anything against AOO, but does imply a lot against it. Which struck me as below the belt!

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 26, 2015 17:40 UTC (Thu) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link]

You mean the same MS Office 2010 which can't even show MS Office created .pptx files right? No, thanks.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 29, 2015 8:47 UTC (Sun) by fredrik (subscriber, #232) [Link]

To me these types of articles - on community issues, social aspects, and developer diversity - are very relevant topics for LWN. The technical merits of software projects are inherently influenced by social aspects.

I'm certain that no two people agree on exactly which quality attributes compose the full scope of the "technical merits" you think we should limit ourselves to when we evaluate projects. And even if we did, our analysis would be flawed. We are social creatures, and we would have a hard time pretending to look only on technically measurable non social quality attributes, if that even is possible. Even the selection of which technical attributes to evaluate are a matter of subjective social influence.

It is hard and time consuming to compare the social and community aspects of software projects, like diversity, interpersonal and intercommunity attitude, accessibility to new developers, and diversity factors in a way that can stand up to public scrutiny. That's a job I'm greatful that LWN takes on.

On the topic of the article, I hope that both LibreOffice and Apache OpenOffice can flourish in the future. Isn't it great that we have two fully cross platform office suits to choose from and to offer as alternatives to the proprietary closed source default in this world?

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 30, 2015 7:22 UTC (Mon) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link]

It is possible, but you still need a minimum of coding activity to do it. Even if your code is perfect and competitors churn a lot of bad code.

However, since the project caring about code health and cleanups seems to be libroffice, what I see here is a project (AOO) that barely sustains survival.

Useful!

Posted Mar 26, 2015 16:24 UTC (Thu) by david.a.wheeler (subscriber, #72896) [Link] (2 responses)

I think it's useful. LibreOffice is a fork of OpenOffice.org; both are going after the same userbase (essentially), so the really are competing (at least for developers). So it's perfectly reasonable to ask, "how many developers, and what are they doing?". This wasn't a speculative article; it looks like he worked to get the actual facts. And it's an important question to answer - many people still want a FLOSS office suite, and will want to know which one is the more active project.

Useful!

Posted Mar 26, 2015 17:34 UTC (Thu) by njd27 (subscriber, #5770) [Link]

LibreOffice has put a huge amount of work into improving their developer experience - speeding up builds, improving infrastructure, refactoring code to make it more readable - none of which directly result in better features for users. But it's interesting to see that those efforts are leading to more developers, increasing rate of change, and hopefully to improving market share.

Useful!

Posted Mar 26, 2015 23:52 UTC (Thu) by tome (subscriber, #3171) [Link]

+1 useful. I've been curious about the relative strengths of the dev communities but too lazy to research it myself. This was a nice summary.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 26, 2015 20:45 UTC (Thu) by zenaan (guest, #3778) [Link]

> I hope the result is useful, but, if not, I won't do it again...

Dear esteemed editor, do rest assured that the result was most certainly useful, and in no way troll-bait IMSVHO (in my so very high opinion) (of course trolls will often self-bait even when uncalled for, but one might consider that in the nature of trolls).

This was a very appropriate article for a large community software project.

Regards,
Zenaan

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 27, 2015 9:21 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

It's very appropriate, as it's an objective insight into the extent of the community around a project, and the degree to which development is spread over it.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 26, 2015 14:18 UTC (Thu) by cesarb (subscriber, #6266) [Link] (15 responses)

It's not the article, it's the subject. It's similar to systemd in that aspect.

Pretend for a moment that it's talking about anything else, and you'll see only the same old "who is developing Linux this time" kind of article we see every kernel release. It looks at the commit statistics, and draws a few conclusions from them, mentioning some related mailing list discussions.

> A technical comparison (of features etc) would have made it worthwhile, but if it is true that AOO is falling behind because of lack of developer effort, why not just stay quiet and let it sort out its own problems (or die)?

How do we know that "AOO is falling behind because of lack of developer effort"? Unless you follow its development, you know by reading articles like this one.

Studying development patterns of Free Software projects is worthwhile. Knowing how and why projects fail or succeed is important. This article can be a starting point for a look at the AOO and LO projects.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 26, 2015 15:01 UTC (Thu) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link] (14 responses)

>Pretend for a moment that it's talking about anything else, and you'll see only the same old "who is developing Linux this time" kind of article we see every kernel release.

Well, no, it talks about the "rivalry", "war of words" and so on in some detail. Yes, articles on systemd/gnome3/ubuntu/others do attract trolls, but (back when upstart was an alternative) I don't recall lwn comparing the commit statistics of systemd and upstart, or claiming that this was relevant to the choice of which init system to use. Similarly for gnome3 vs unity or kde4, mir vs wayland, etc. The articles have always focussed on technical issues, as they should.

The best precedent I can think of off-hand is the cdrecord fuss, where a "one-man-project" was sought to be replaced by a bunch of mainly Debian-origin people. That was years ago, of course. But the fact that cdrecord was maintained by one guy was never an issue, only his attitude towards bug reports (and, eventually, licence issues) was.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 26, 2015 20:40 UTC (Thu) by zenaan (guest, #3778) [Link] (9 responses)

> The articles have always focussed on technical issues, as they should.

Every couple of months LWN looks at kernel commit statistics. And occasionally at other projects. The *Office projects are huge code bases and programs with vast numbers of features/components. I assert that for large projects, looking at "community health" by way of number of developers and commit statistics is very useful information, when comparing libre projects.

> The best precedent I can think of off-hand is the cdrecord fuss, where a "one-man-project" was sought to be replaced by a bunch of mainly Debian-origin people. That was years ago, of course. But the fact that cdrecord was maintained by one guy was never an issue, only his attitude towards bug reports (and, eventually, licence issues) was.

Compared to *Office, cdrecord is a vastly smaller project. Commit statistics are simply not as relevant, since the feature set is relatively much smaller, and so yes, bug handling and the lone developer's attitude most definitely are, in that circumstance, the important things to consider, and therefore to report on.

So once again thank you LWN.

Zenaan

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 27, 2015 18:08 UTC (Fri) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link] (8 responses)

There simply aren't that many projects the size of the LO codebase. You could probably count them on one hand.

It's also one of the most important user software within the free software community because it's pretty darn hard to use any OS as a daily driver without a word processor, spreadsheet and presentation software that runs on it. These are basic software used every day in the business community. Without FOSS office software one of the principle uses of software in business wouldn't exist within the FOSS community.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 27, 2015 19:48 UTC (Fri) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link] (7 responses)

Probably GCC, LLVM, Xorg, possibly glibc and PostgreSQL qualify, not much else AFAICS. And yes, I'd be thrilled to see "who develops <foo>" articles on those. The time of our esteemed editor allowing, that is.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 27, 2015 23:59 UTC (Fri) by remicardona (guest, #99141) [Link] (4 responses)

Browsers these days are huge beasts, probably ranging in the 1M lines of code each.

Xorg on the other hand is no longer the huge bloated beast (code wise) it once was. Since the fork from XFree86, it has lost its userspace PCI/AGP bus driver, its ELF loader, its own pthread implementation, its own print server (and drivers), its own serial port drivers and keyboard/mouse drivers on top of said serial ports, …

Xorg may still support 99.9% of the core X11 protocol (which is itself bloated and completely outdated) but it is now a much leaner code base, which no longer is its own userspace operating system.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 29, 2015 4:52 UTC (Sun) by alonz (subscriber, #815) [Link] (1 responses)

Funny. It sounds like one could take the stuff removed from XFree86, and use that to build an entire operating system…

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 30, 2015 23:32 UTC (Mon) by jwarnica (subscriber, #27492) [Link]

An unmaintainable one that exactly no one understands.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 31, 2015 9:13 UTC (Tue) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link] (1 responses)

Browsers are far over 1M lines of code these days.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 31, 2015 9:29 UTC (Tue) by tao (subscriber, #17563) [Link]

From a quick check Firefox seems to exceed 11 MLoC (.c, .cpp, .h, .hpp, .py -- 8M, .js 3M).

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 28, 2015 3:27 UTC (Sat) by leoc (guest, #39773) [Link]

A comparison like this between gcc and llvm would be fascinating.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Apr 8, 2015 19:40 UTC (Wed) by oak (guest, #2786) [Link]

X is pretty small compared to e.g. widget toolkits. Qt is several million LOCs, much larger than Gtk, but it includes more things (not just widgets). Eclipse is also a huge code base, but I don't know what that would be best compared against.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 27, 2015 10:45 UTC (Fri) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link] (1 responses)

One project forked from the other, so comparing commits is quite interesting. I actually sometimes compare KDE and GNOME commits. It's been a while, but always interesting thing to do (though difficult to find any conclusions).

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Apr 2, 2015 9:53 UTC (Thu) by moltonel (guest, #45207) [Link]

Sorry to nitpick, but the AOO and LO projects both forked off OpenOffice.org. They are sibling forks from a common parent, not parent and child. Despite the more similar name and Oracle's official handover, there was enough disruption during AOO's birth that it cannot be called a continuation of the same project : it's a fork.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 27, 2015 10:47 UTC (Fri) by amit (subscriber, #1274) [Link]

There can be such a comparison here, since both the projects diverged from a common codebase, so commit stats, etc., are relevant.

For the other projects, they may be in various states of maturity (e.g. upstart vs systemd), so commit stats don't always show the right picture (it may show where a lot of development happens, but feature parity is what is necessary to compare those projects.).

So, in this case, such an article is helpful.

Also, a lot of work in LO has been on cleaning up the codebase, so it's not directly translated to features, but it translates to a better environment for developers, and hence, future development of new features.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Apr 2, 2015 5:56 UTC (Thu) by k8to (guest, #15413) [Link]

These two things were closely related in both directions.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 26, 2015 21:54 UTC (Thu) by branden (guest, #7029) [Link]

Should the French ever decide to once again restore the monarchy, then they have found in Mr. Weir the perfect Bourbon to occupy the throne.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 27, 2015 1:06 UTC (Fri) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link] (2 responses)

I agree that it comes off a little strong but I disagree about the probable cause: AOO's one-man Negative PR Department has been mercifully absent from the comments in all LO-related articles for many months now.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 27, 2015 16:33 UTC (Fri) by jra (subscriber, #55261) [Link] (1 responses)

There is a reason for that. A short story may illustrate.

During the FSFE+Samba vs Microsoft legal issues, I got very frustrated with several organizations who persistently made statements that whilst not verging into bold faced untruths, certainly were in the ballpark.

I gained enlightenment one evening whilst having a heated argument with one of the lesser offenders, who were at least friendly and interesting enough to have dinner with. Someone on 'our' side asked them "How much would it cost to have you argue our point of view ?" A (not unreasonable) number was quoted in reply. More than we could afford of course :-).

As a 'true believer' myself, I sometimes forget that for many people, this is merely a job.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Apr 2, 2015 1:12 UTC (Thu) by donbarry (guest, #10485) [Link]

Some are in fact so openly cynical. Others aren't even aware of it personally -- it operates at a deeper level. There is the old line of Upton Sinclair's: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 26, 2015 13:20 UTC (Thu) by mtpaley (guest, #14853) [Link] (4 responses)

OpenOffice also seems to be bedevilled with dangerous downloads. My sister wanted OpenOffice a while ago so I sent her a clean link to LibreOffice. Instead she googled OpenOffice and downloaded the first link which was OpenOffice rewrapped and bundled with loads of hard to remove malware. This is still the case, every time I look for OpenOffice the first link is always dangerous (try it and see) but so far LibreOffice is safe.

Sleazy downloads

Posted Mar 26, 2015 13:40 UTC (Thu) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] (3 responses)

I don't think that's a problem that is inherent to OpenOffice; those sorts of people go after anything with a well-known brand. LWN looked at the problem (and the use of trademark law to try to stop it) back in 2013.

Sleazy downloads - google's fault

Posted Apr 2, 2015 11:27 UTC (Thu) by sourcejedi (guest, #45153) [Link] (1 responses)

It's most likely Google's fault. End of last year, they *finally* admitted their ads were pushing highly unwanted software, as if it was the top search result you were asking for. At least for many users, who don't have a good understanding of online business models.

http://www.howtogeek.com/210568/google-is-now-blocking-cr...

I think the "real" ("organic"?) search results generally worked well. The problem is they were preceded with 3+ links with similar formatting (a/b tested), carefully crafted by the advertisers.

Of course crappy/evil adware is more like _competition_ - particularly if it's messing with your web search - than a reliable profit source. Perhaps I've been carrying an overly rosy view of the big G; it's not very impressive. This is without even looking at the recurring problems with "malvertising" of cryptolocker & friends.

Sleazy downloads - google's fault

Posted Apr 2, 2015 17:12 UTC (Thu) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

You can't just blame Google. There are a number of places that were once good to go to and find reviews of software and download links to the software that have now made all their downloads install other 'stuff' (cnet being a prime example).

Sleazy downloads

Posted Apr 2, 2015 18:57 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

Sometimes official sites are just as bad ... I wanted to download a "virtual CD" program I'd used in the past - Alcohol 52. So I went to the official download site, and it used this crap. Of course, I mis-clicked something and got some malware installed - I use that term rather than adware deliberately ...

One of the consequences was that the firefox updater got hijacked, so when firefox downloaded an update this malware fired up trying to trick me into downloading even more rubbish!

Fortunately, I'd only just done a factory reset on the machine, and was setting it up how I wanted it, so I did another reset - obviously I won't be touching Alcohol with a barge pole now!

Cheers,
Wol

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 26, 2015 14:31 UTC (Thu) by njd27 (subscriber, #5770) [Link] (1 responses)

An interesting tidbit from the AOO lists: they are currently thinking about getting release 4.2.1 out, but the release manager retired several months ago and no-one else has stepped forward to do that job yet:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.ooo....

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Mar 26, 2015 18:33 UTC (Thu) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]

That would be _4.1.2_, a successor to 4.1.1

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Apr 2, 2015 8:02 UTC (Thu) by jdub (guest, #27) [Link] (1 responses)

Terrific analysis. Thank you.

Rob Weir did some great work during the OOXML days, but seems to have brought that combative stance to the administration of OpenOffice and subsequently its relationship with LibreOffice.

Meanwhile, the LibreOffice team has shown how doing the right thing by your community and optimising for developer experience can raise a project from the dead.

I hope someone can step in and sort out the brand issue. It's a great brand, but an awful waste on a moribund community.

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Apr 2, 2015 9:20 UTC (Thu) by ofirm (guest, #54632) [Link]

Thanks Jonathan for one of the most interesting and informational LWN articles in recent times!
Reading the comments, I must admit I had the opposite feeling while reading the article. I felt that Jonathan was too conservative in pointing the material differences between the two projects.
I find it is amazing to see how clearly have the community spoken: two communities formed from the same initial code base. Today, one has 268 developers. The other has 16.
This is a dramatic (and rare) outcome. I think everything else is just a background noise (60x difference in changesets etc).

Development activity in LibreOffice and OpenOffice

Posted Apr 5, 2015 16:59 UTC (Sun) by augustz (guest, #37348) [Link]

IBM is the primary funder of OpenOffice development I believe.

In terms of brand, that's not actually entirely an unreasonable approach - OpenOffice from a brand side is still as strong or stronger than LibreOffice. And in enterprise sales, brand is huge...

Fascinating article, I've been enjoying Libreoffice, but had never really gotten back to compare them again with openoffice.



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